| Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors | |
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Penz 6
Nombre de messages : 706 Age : 40 Localisation : Candiac Categorie courser : Sedan & 1/12 Date d'inscription : 05/09/2012
| Sujet: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Ven 18 Jan 2013, 13:38 | |
| After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
http://www.roarracing.com/?p=1842 | |
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Penz 6
Nombre de messages : 706 Age : 40 Localisation : Candiac Categorie courser : Sedan & 1/12 Date d'inscription : 05/09/2012
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Ven 18 Jan 2013, 13:46 | |
| et la réponse de Trinity : - Citation :
Dear Partners and Customers:
At roughly 10pm last evening I received an email from Steve Pond who I believe now is the Secretary of ROAR saying that the D3.5 (17.5 spec motor) is being removed from the ROAR list effective immediately. Please see press release shown on the ROAR website below (it is a little confusing because it implies that the entire D3.5 is in question but upon reading further it is only the 17.5 spec motor)
Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors
After a great deal of consideration the ROAR Executive Committee has determined that the Trinity D3.5 motor and others based on the D3.5, do not comply with the organization’s required specifications for motors in the 17.5 stock class. The determination is based on the fact that motors being sold are built with wire that’s larger than maximum specification permitted. All of the random samples of the D3.5 based motors during the announced compliance checks tested with wire that’s larger than the maximum dimension. Rule 8.8.4.3.1 states clearly that “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
This entry was posted on Thursday, January 17th, 2013 at 11:20 pm and is filed under Approval News,
Trinity's position on this is as follows:
1) We built a brushless motor to the specifications and rules R.O.A.R. gives us and every other motor builder. The rules are not perfect like most any rule made. But Trinity followed the "letter of the law",
2) We have several issues here:
A) The rule reads 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813mm per slot. A diameter of .813mm is the nominal measurement of 20AWG wire, and that it is the stated maximum wire diameter permitted. It’s on this basis that the Executive Committee made its determination.
Problem 1: There is no tolerance mentioned anywhere in this rule. It is literally impossible to manufacture any product today, especially in China with a zero tolerance. We have supplied letters from our motor company to ROAR saying that the 20AWG that we use is compliant with their rule and every copper wire that is manufactured throughout the world "has some tolerance". ROAR says wire companies do not use any tolerance and make everything EXACT. Are we to be lead to believe that a Chinese or American wire company that has produced wire slightly larger or smaller in size "in this present world economy" is then "melting it down or throwing it away" This is not practical. It is also not practical to have any rule with zero tolerance!
Problem 2: The above rule is confusing and can be misinterpreted because it was not written correctly. You choose either .813mm or 20AWG....
We chose 20AWG wire which are motor company in China ordered and supplied ROAR with the necessary amount of samples, in the same manner Trinity and every other motor manufacturer operates. We paid for the sample motors and paid the ROAR approval fees (in excess of a thousand dollars). We then wait (like every other motor company for either an approval or an issue). If we receive the approval, we then start the production of motors, just like every other motor manufacturer.
Problem 3: We were issued an approval for the D3.5 (17.5) in April of 2012 and released the first batch of D3.5 spec motors in the R.O.A.R. pipeline and have been selling these motors for over TEN (10) months.......
Problem 4: ROAR has confirmed that they have tested recent motors, through spot-checks as well as the "original samples" that are archived at ROAR (like every other motor manufacturer) and they have concluded that the motors have never been changed by Trinity since the initial approval
Problem 5: ROAR faced a number of competing motor manufacturer's with complaints about the motor and ROAR then purchased what they say...."more sophisticated measuring equipment to test motors" than what was available when they tested Trinity and every other motor submitted for the past several years.
Problem 6: They are now determining that they feel our motor (17.5) does not meet their specification and have pulled this "ONE MOTOR" 17.5 Spec off the list with no warning, no grace period and no discussion with the manufacturer.
Our position here is "WE HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG" and this obviously can "ARBITRARILY HAPPEN AGAIN" to any one of you if your competitors yell loud enough. WE DID NOTHING WRONG. WE COMPLIED TO THEIR SPEC, PAID THEIR FEES, WENT THROUGH THEIR APPROVAL PROCESS, MADE THE D3.5 MORE AVAILABLE TO MORE SOURCES THAN ALL THE OTHER MOTOR MANUFACTURER'S COMBINED!
How do we go forward and our concerns:
A) Our main concern is that this is an "ARBITRARY DECISION" ROAR made due to increased pressure from outside manufacturer's (who should have nothing to do with running the organization). This is a MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST
B) ROAR is assuming NO RESPONSIBILITY for APPROVING THIS MOTOR AND ALLOWING PEOPLE TO BUY THIS FOR OVER 10 MONTHS WHEN WE CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE ORIGINAL APPROVAL
C) ROAR has shown no responsibility for clubs and organizers, distributors, dealers and consumers who purchased this motor "BASED ON THEIE APPROVAL" since they run their establishments on ROAR rules.
D) ROAR has offered NO SOLUTION TO THE MATTER other than they are possibly working a new spec for a motor but have no details or information about this.
In closing I am hoping to speak with the new ROAR President at some point today to go over these points and to see what if anything can be resolved. This press release is just to inform you of what is happening and my promise to you that we will not allow our company, our partners (OEM'S) and our customers suffer without a fight if a "realistic solution can be reached". We are seeking relief from this ruling for the following indisputable reasons:
1) We were granted ROAR approval by Bob Ingersol, The ROAR technical director and the ROAR Executive and ROAR has confirmed we have not changed the motor since it was approved 10 Months AGO! 2) ROAR saying they have purchased new equipment which obviously changes the way they approve motors is no concern of ours....it is just a confirmation that they feel their approval process was not up to the task. This is not the fault of any motor manufacturer who complied to ROAR's approval rules 3) This is an arbitrary decision with no solution given due to increased pressure from competing manufactures (WHICH IS A MAJOR CONFLICT OF INTEREST) if several parties can exert this type of pressure over a volunteer organization.
Again I am hoping some peaceful and realistic resolution for all parties can be reached quickly. Trinity does not want to seek an immediate injunction or relief from this 'ruling" and force it to be decided in the courts system.
I thank-you for listening and for your continued support for Trinity.
Thanks..Ernie
Ernest N. Provetti Chief Executive Officer Trincorp, LLC, Team Trinity / Epic
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Spiderone Admin
Nombre de messages : 1886 Age : 42 Localisation : St-Luc Categorie courser : Sedan Team Associated TC6.1 17.5 Date d'inscription : 04/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Ven 18 Jan 2013, 19:19 | |
| Le suje me fait un peu rire et le tord vas des deux sens dans cette histoire la. Dans le wire gauge il y a des tolérances pour être considéré du 20 AWG et cette tolérence est de +ou- 0.04mm. Donc le diamètre nominale du 20 AWG est de 0.89mm, si nous prenons en compte la tolérance de +ou- 0.04 le fil devrais mesuré de 0.85 à 0.93, en dehors de cela ce n'est pas du 20 AWG. Trinity se plaint peut être que le livre de ROAR ne spécifie pas de tolérances, c'est bien vrai mais il reste toujours bien que si on y vas avec les gauges peut être qu'avoir mis du fil 1mm étais un peu exagéré.
Sérieusement je ne crois pas l'histoire que ce soit une erreur qui se soit glissé, comme toujours il y en aura qui essayeront d'exploité chaque zone grise pour être meilleur que les autres.
Mais encore pire, c'est que ROAR a émis une approbation il y a plus de dix mois comme de quoi que le D3.5 répondait a leur normes et qu'aujourd'hui ils se rende compte que le bobinage n'est pas conforme. C'était quoi leur metodes pour mesurer les fils avant qui est si différente aujourd'hui pour se rendre compte que ce n'est pas conforme. Détruire un stator et mesurer les fils ne leur ont jamais passer par la tête, ou les gars approuve n'importe quoi. Je comprend maintenant pourquoi les gros événement tourne le dos a ROAR..
J-P | |
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Penz 6
Nombre de messages : 706 Age : 40 Localisation : Candiac Categorie courser : Sedan & 1/12 Date d'inscription : 05/09/2012
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Ven 18 Jan 2013, 20:03 | |
| Ce qui doit être moins drôle est d'en avoir acheté pour rouler a une course ROAR et de ne pu pouvoir Ce n'est pas mon cas mais je suis sur que en quelques part, il doit avoir du monde Ben frustré ! | |
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Penz 6
Nombre de messages : 706 Age : 40 Localisation : Candiac Categorie courser : Sedan & 1/12 Date d'inscription : 05/09/2012
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Ven 18 Jan 2013, 20:32 | |
| Je dois avouer que autour de Noël, je regardais pour m'en commander 1 ... ou 2 pour Welland et pour St-Lambert. mais finalement je m'étais dis que de me concentrer sur ma conduite était plus important que de tenter d'avoir un moteur qui arrache le tapis J'ai été chanceux | |
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Spiderone Admin
Nombre de messages : 1886 Age : 42 Localisation : St-Luc Categorie courser : Sedan Team Associated TC6.1 17.5 Date d'inscription : 04/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Ven 18 Jan 2013, 23:00 | |
| Finalement les mesures dans le copié coller de Alex sont bonne, comme d'habitude les anglais on deux syteme de mesures et dans les gauges on peux avoir les US et les britaniques.
Donc du 20 AWG est bel et bien 0.813mm
J-P | |
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Penz 6
Nombre de messages : 706 Age : 40 Localisation : Candiac Categorie courser : Sedan & 1/12 Date d'inscription : 05/09/2012
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Sam 19 Jan 2013, 10:20 | |
| Il semble que le moteur va être accepté au National (Welland).
Ça créer une drôle de situation. C'est cool pour ceux qui ont déjà un D3.5 avec eux ... Ceux qui en n'ont pas et qui course à des endroits qui demande des moteurs ROAR, ça donne rien d'acheter cela vue qu'on pourra pas le courir nul part.
Quand tu lis sur le D3.5, ça l'air d'être vraiment plus performant que les autres. | |
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philrace34 5
Nombre de messages : 182 Localisation : Grand-mere Date d'inscription : 22/12/2010
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Sam 19 Jan 2013, 21:27 | |
| Loll mon D3 est pret pour toronto !! ce que jaime de ste moteur la c que ils te donne les numbers quand tu lachete , pis sont vraiment vraiment tres proche lun de lautre ! pas besoins de acheter 800 stator pis rotor pour en trouver 2 bon ils sont toute bon ! | |
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Daniel multi 2
Nombre de messages : 38 Localisation : st-lin Date d'inscription : 26/01/2010
| Sujet: d3.5 Sam 19 Jan 2013, 23:26 | |
| legal aux snowbird aussi
In response to the recent ruling from Roar on the D3.5 17.5, we have decided to continue allowing it as an approved motor for this year's Snowbird Nationals. This motor has been raced at practically every event the past 10 months, including Roar Nationals, and we feel disallowing it this close to the race would not be fair to the average racer in the 17.5 stock classes. Participants have made their plans to attend the Snowbirds and have invested their money already for this event, all under the assumption this motor was going to be legal. We have a tremendous database of technical data to ensure all motors, and all brands, are within production ranges, and are confident we will have a great tech program in place for the 2013 Snowbirds. All other rules posted on our event page remain with this one exception. We hate this situation has arisen and hope that it does not dampen anyone's plans to attend. If anyone would like to change classes because of this, or even receive a refund, please shoot me an email. We are extremely excited to bring you the 19th annual Snowbirds and are confident this will be one of the best 'birds yet! Thanks to everyone for their continued support!
daniel | |
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Tssr69 Admin
Nombre de messages : 1474 Age : 105 Localisation : Montréal Categorie courser : TB EVO V MS + TB EVO V full custom ;) Date d'inscription : 24/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Dim 20 Jan 2013, 00:17 | |
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bobynet 6
Nombre de messages : 1089 Age : 58 Localisation : Chez-moi Date d'inscription : 20/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Mar 26 Fév 2013, 23:18 | |
| http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-road/708645-roar-heading-court-over-d3-5-a.html | |
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Tssr69 Admin
Nombre de messages : 1474 Age : 105 Localisation : Montréal Categorie courser : TB EVO V MS + TB EVO V full custom ;) Date d'inscription : 24/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Mer 27 Fév 2013, 09:17 | |
| Re dans les dents ROAR | |
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Cadman1981 6
Nombre de messages : 463 Age : 42 Localisation : Brossard Categorie courser : 17.5 On-road, F1, 1/8 brushless buggy Date d'inscription : 06/12/2012
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Mer 27 Fév 2013, 14:02 | |
| J'aime le post #5 | |
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bobynet 6
Nombre de messages : 1089 Age : 58 Localisation : Chez-moi Date d'inscription : 20/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Dim 03 Mar 2013, 16:52 | |
| http://www.thebigrc.com/?p=3897 | |
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Cadman1981 6
Nombre de messages : 463 Age : 42 Localisation : Brossard Categorie courser : 17.5 On-road, F1, 1/8 brushless buggy Date d'inscription : 06/12/2012
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Mar 25 Juin 2013, 09:16 | |
| https://www.facebook.com/fantomracing
http://www.roarracing.com/?p=2043
THE LEGAL BATTLE IS FINALLY OVER...READ ON...
PRESS RELEASE
Trincorp Reaches Settlement Agreement with Remotely Operated Auto Racers.
JUNE 24, 2013 – WASHINGTON, DC – Trincorp, LLC, along with three other companies (Fantom Racing, Team EAM Inc, and Putnam Propulsion), have reached a settlement with Remotely Operated Auto Racers (ROAR) to resolve all outstanding issues regarding the removal of the Trinity D3.5/17.5 motor from the ROAR approved list.
The parties were able to reach a settlement without either party admitting or conceding any liability for claims raised in the lawsuit after Mr. Ernest Provetti of Trincorp, LLC was able to personally meet with ROAR’s President, Mr. Steve Mruk. At that meeting, the parties agreed that the interests of the individual racers. who purchased the Trinity D3.5/17.5 motor after ROAR initially approved the motor, should take priority in structuring the settlement. Accordingly, the parties crafted the terms of the agreement in order to provide a meaningful opportunity for those racers who had purchased the Trinity D3.5/17.5 motors to actually race the motors in ROAR sanctioned races for a specified period of time.
Under the terms of the agreement, the TRINITY D3.5/17.5 Trinity motor will be reinstated on the ROAR approved list on July 1, 2013 and will remain on that list though the first quarter of 2014, upon the release of the new TRINITY D4/17.5, when it will be removed. Trincorp has guaranteed this will occur before March 30, 2014.
ROAR, a non-profit organization staffed by unpaid volunteers, is a sanctioning body, which operates for the benefit of the racers. The ROAR Executive Committee is committed to improving it operations through a set of measures which are intended to become effective within the next ninety days. The operational changes are as follows:
ROAR will reinstate an independent testing laboratory for product evaluation and testing by September 1, 2013.
In order that the ROAR members and the RC Community will be better informed regarding ROAR’s operations, ROAR will also put in place new rules and standardized procedures for the product approval process, including avenues for affiliate members’ direct participation with ROAR.
Trincorp, Fantom, Team EA, and Putnam will continue to support and participate with ROAR in promoting and regulating radio controlled automobile racing.
ROAR appreciates the continuing participation and cooperation of Trincorp, Fantom, EAM, and Putnam as affiliate members of ROAR. | |
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Tssr69 Admin
Nombre de messages : 1474 Age : 105 Localisation : Montréal Categorie courser : TB EVO V MS + TB EVO V full custom ;) Date d'inscription : 24/07/2007
| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors Mar 25 Juin 2013, 10:16 | |
| Je suis heureux du dénouement ! Je crois par contre vue qu'il va être retiré de la liste en 2014 que pour les 3 dernières courses à St-Lambert qu'il reste out... Si quelqu'un de l'extérieur arrive avec ça je suis prêt à faire une entorse, mais pas plus... | |
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| Sujet: Re: Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors | |
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| Approval status of Trinity D3.5 and D3.5-based OEM motors | |
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